Daily Wisdom

November 11, 2007

Veterans Day 2007


Throughout our history, America has been protected by patriots who cherished liberty and made great sacrifices to advance the cause of freedom. The brave members of the United States Armed Forces have answered the call to serve our Nation, ready to give all for their country. On Veterans Day, we honor these extraordinary Americans for their service and sacrifice, and we pay tribute to the legacy of freedom and peace that they have given our great Nation.

In times of war and of peace, our men and women in uniform stepped forward to defend their fellow citizens and the country they love. They shouldered great responsibility and lived up to the highest standards of duty and honor. Our veterans held fast against determined and ruthless enemies and helped save the world from tyranny and terror. They ensured that America remained what our founders meant her to be: a light to the nations, spreading the good news of human freedom to the darkest corners of the earth.

Like the heroes before them, today a new generation of men and women are fighting for freedom around the globe. Their determination, courage, and sacrifice are laying the foundation for a more secure and peaceful world.

Veterans Day is dedicated to the extraordinary Americans who protected our freedom in years past, and to those who protect it today. They represent the very best of our Nation. Every Soldier, Sailor, Airman, Marine, and Coast Guardsman has earned the lasting gratitude of the American people, and their service and sacrifice will be remembered forever. In the words of Abraham Lincoln: "... let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the Nation's wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle ..." On this Veterans Day, I ask all Americans to express their appreciation to our Nation's veterans.

...in the year of our Lord two thousand seven, and of the Independence of the United States of America the two hundred and thirty-second.

-- GEORGE W. BUSH


19 Comments:

At 11/12/2007 1:33 AM , Anonymous camojack said...

Amen.

 
At 11/13/2007 3:42 AM , Anonymous Elroy said...

Hey Hawkeye! Did you catch this story by dawn's early light? Or, for that matter, twilight's last gleaming?

Give it a whirl and tell us what y'all reckon!

18 arrested in antiwar protest by veterans
By Tania deLuzuriaga and Charles M. Sennott
November 12, 2007

More than a dozen members of an antiwar veterans group were arrested yesterday as they protested the exclusion of their message from Boston's Veterans Day parade.

Members of Veterans for Peace lined up in front of a podium at City Hall Plaza holding antiwar placards, as color guards from Massachusetts military units and JROTC bands from across the state filed into Government Center for a ceremony, sponsored by the American Legion, to honor veterans after the parade.

Some protesters wore gags, which they later said symbolized the fact that, while they were permitted to march in the parade, they were prevented from carrying signs opposing the war in Iraq.

"We were exercising our First Amendment rights," said Winston Warfield of Dorchester, a member of the group. "The First Amendment protects free speech, even when you don't agree with what's being said."

When Boston police asked the demonstrators to move from the front of the podium so that the Veterans Day services could continue, they refused. As the Boston Firemen's Band played The Marine Hymn, several protesters were placed in plastic handcuffs and led away.

"Our free speech and civil rights are being abridged here," said Nate Goldschlag, a Vietnam-era veteran who was among those standing in front of the podium. "We are veterans, too, and we should be allowed to express our opposition to this war."

And there's pictures too!
http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2007/11/12/18_arrested_in_antiwar_protest_by_veterans/

Grrr! Stoopid 1st Amendment!

As your good GWB said: "Some people have too much freedom"

Cheers

Elroy

 
At 11/13/2007 7:43 AM , Blogger Hawkeye® said...

Elroy,
You left out the most important sentence in the article...

Boston police said that 18 people were arrested - 15 men and three women. All were charged with disturbing a lawful assembly of people.

People have a right to free speech. And there are plenty of forums to be heard. But disturbing the peace is not a right - it's a crime. And besides, Veterans Day is meant to honor heroes... not whiners.

Cheers

 
At 11/13/2007 6:33 PM , Anonymous Elroy said...

Gee Hawkeye – I assure you that my ommison was not deliberate. I believe in full and frank disclosure, so thank you for pointing out my error.

However, that leads us to the question: What constitutes 'disturbing a lawful assembly of people'? They were holding placards. Is this really a disturbance? Think carefully before you answer.

Do the right not disturb lawful assemblies of people with monotonous regularity? And how often are they arrestsed? The veterans had a perfect right to be where they were, but isn't arresting them a bit of overkill? Why can't they express themselves? Why can't their message be heard?

So in order to escape any accusations of hypocrisy,
I suggest you rewrite you post along these lines:

'On Veterans Day, we honor these extraordinary Americans for their service and sacrifice, and we pay tribute to the legacy of freedom and peace that they have given our great Nation – except the whiners'

'Veterans Day is dedicated to the extraordinary Americans who protected our freedom in years past – except the whiners'.

'On this Veterans Day, I ask all Americans to express their appreciation to our Nation's veterans – except those #@&% whiners'.

As not all veterans are obviously not equal, I really think that you you should make your beliefs known instead of hiding behind a pious patriotism that masks your true feelings.

Cheers

Elroy

 
At 11/13/2007 11:18 PM , Blogger Hawkeye® said...

Elroy,
You seem to suggest that the protesters were merely guilty of "holding placards". Nevertheless, the article you quote says...

"When Boston police asked the demonstrators to move from the front of the podium so that the Veterans Day services could continue, they refused."

Clearly, the protesters were obstructionist and confrontational. If conservatives acted similarly to stop an anti-war protest from continuing, you would be the first to cry foul.

My friend, free speech rights go both ways. Those who were there to honor our heroes had as much right to free speech as the "#@&% whiners" (your term, not mine). The whiners however, were obstructing the proceedings from continuing. They were guilty of denying the free speech rights of the pro-Vets. They were therefore, clearly criminals... don't you agree?

Secondly, you are not an American, so I am not surprised that you have no respect for American traditions, or American veterans. That's OK... I don't think much of Aussies like you either. You're just a bunch of 'bush men' and descendants of British criminals. Don't get me wrong. There are some good Aussies, but you're not one of them.

Third, learn the language man. You said... As not all veterans are obviously not equal. This is a double negative, which suggests that all veterans are indeed equal! I know that's not what you meant, and this only diminishes my regard for your intelligence.

Cheers.

 
At 11/14/2007 1:57 AM , Anonymous Elroy said...

‘Clearly, the protesters were obstructionist and confrontational’.

Maybe, but not violent. They didn’t hurt anyone. Just annoyed them.

‘If conservatives acted similarly to stop an anti-war protest from continuing, you would be the first to cry foul.’

But conservatives do it all the time and never get arrested for it. They are omnipresent at peace marches where they are deliberately antagonistic, but do I think they should be arrested? Absolutely not! If they commit actual violence then that is a different matter, but if not, well, that’s the price of the freedom you are so fond of telling all about.

'My friend, free speech rights go both ways.'

Indeedy-doody, yes it it does.

'who were there to honor our heroes had as much right to free speech.'

Exactly. As much right to free speech. As much. Right. To. Free speech. Thank you for proving my point.

'as the "#@&% whiners" (your term, not mine).'

‘#@&%’ was mine. ‘Whiners’ was yours.

'[They were] guilty of denying the free speech rights of the pro-Vets.'

What’s a pro-Vet? Is that as opposed to amateur-Vet?

'They were therefore, clearly criminals... don't you agree?'

Funnily enough, I 100%, vehemently, categorically and unreservedly disagree. Protest is not and must never be, no matter how inconvenient it might be, a criminal act. Ever.

Criminals? I honestly cannot believe you have said this! The day that anyone can get a criminal conviction for peaceful protest is the day your country crosses the line into fascism.

Listen to yourself! Think about what you have said! Arrested and convicted for protesting! Unbelievable!

'Secondly, you are not an American, so I am not surprised that you have no respect for American traditions, or American veterans.'

Who said that? I have plenty of respect for American traditions and veterans! I don’t have to a American to do that. Don't put words into my mouth.

'That's OK... I don't think much of Aussies like you either. You're just a bunch of 'bush men' and descendants of British criminals.'

Well, who’s falling for the propaganda now? Have you ever stopped to consider that we are just as much descendents of the soldiers sent to guard the criminals?

And when you say criminals, have you ever stopped to consider how evil a criminal these people were? In 1788 England you could be hung for just about anything, so you certainly didn’t have to try hard to be transported – just guilty of being poor.

And just quietly, by far the majority of Australians are descendents of willing migrants who came here of their own volition from all over the world, one of those ‘huddled masses’ type deals. There – now you know.

'Don't get me wrong. There are some good Aussies, but you're not one of them.'

Hey – maybe I’m a migrant!

'Third, learn the language man. You said... As not all veterans are obviously not equal. This is a double negative, which suggests that all veterans are indeed equal! I know that's not what you meant, and this only diminishes my regard for your intelligence.'

Uh oh! Typo smackdown! Look, if you know what I meant but had a crack at me anyway, that tells us much more about your intelligence than mine. I mean, really! I thought you were above this kind of thing, but yet you again you have disappointed. Ah well, I live in hope.

Cheers

Elroy

 
At 11/14/2007 8:37 AM , Blogger Hawkeye® said...

Elroy,
Arrested and convicted for protesting! Unbelievable!

No. They were arrested (convicted I don't know) for disrupting a "lawful assembly" and denying the free speech rights of the 'pro-Vets' (as in 'pro' versus 'con')...

pro: in favor of, as in Pro-Life, Pro-Vote, etc.

Cheers.

 
At 11/14/2007 5:57 PM , Anonymous Elroy said...

'No. They were arrested (convicted I don't know) for disrupting a "lawful assembly" and denying the free speech rights of the 'pro-Vets'

But the only people that were denied their free speech were the vets that were arrested. The other vets weren’t denied anything – the vets that were arrested were gagged.

They had gags in their mouths. They had gagged themselves to symbolize how dissent is being subjugated by the Bush administration and for their trouble they were, ironically enough, subjugated.

They did not stop the other vets getting on with their business, and as they were themselves vets they had a perfect right to be where they were. It’s a sad and sorry day when veterans can only be honoured if they hold the correct political views – I always thought that the USA went in to fight to protect the right of its citizens to say whatever they want even if it is unpopular – no, especially if its unpopular – but I must have bee mistaken.

They must have only fought to protect the voice of the status quo, and why are they so passionate about this namby-pamby peace malarkey anyway? They know the glory of battle, the nobility of sacrifice, the sheer exhilaration of being pinned down in a foxhole by enemy fire, the pure joy and satisfaction of machine gunning a nest of 19 year old Krauts, gooks and ragheads, the unmitigated splendor of getting a limb blown off and seeing their best buddy reduced to his component atoms by a land mine or three, so what’s their problem?

Their problem is that their experience of battle, of sacrifce, of being pinned down in a foxhole by enemy fire, of machine gunning a nest of 19 year old Krauts, gooks and ragheads, of getting a limb blown off and seeing their best buddy reduced to his component atoms by a land mine or three, has taught them war is a complete nightmare and no solution to anything and so, when faced by an administration with no experience of these things, they feel it incumbent upon themselves to educate said administration.

It is a sorry state of affairs when, instead of making people stop and think ‘Hey! These guys fought for us! Maybe we should respect what they are saying and take the trouble to listen and consider their message; after all, they should know’, maniacal hawks just scream ‘Throw the bums out!’ and carry on reveling in a war they don’t have to fight.

Were you ever pinned down in a foxhole by enemy fire? Did you ever have to machine gun a nest of 19 year old Krauts, gooks and ragheads? Did you ever get a limb blown off and see your best buddy reduced to his component atoms by a land mine or three? I didn’t myself – I was lucky enough to grow up in a time when such things were considered unnecessary and undesirable, and so were avoided at all costs.

So maybe turning a deaf ear to – no, make that arresting and charging – the very people you should be listening to is, well, both rude and stupid. But there you go; should I really expect y’all to be polite and intelligent? Not on the evidence presented so far but, as I say, I live in hope…

Cheers

Elroy

PS So a ‘pro-Vet’ is in favour of…vets? Not much surprise there.

 
At 11/14/2007 7:53 PM , Blogger Hawkeye® said...

Elroy,
Give it up already! The only vets that were arrested were the ones that were IN THE PROCESS of using their free speech rights to disrupt and deny the free speech rights of others... Capiche?

D'OH!

 
At 11/14/2007 8:19 PM , Anonymous Elroy said...

Three things.

1. The were wearing gags, therefore no speech was being impeded or denied.

2. If they were ‘IN THE PROCESS’ then that that process was by definition not complete, and so therefore, again, free speech was not denied. Savvy?

3. What of the idea that these veterans deserve to be heard? Ot that arresting them contradicts everything they fought for? Nothing? Why am I not surprised?

Cheers

Elroy

 
At 11/14/2007 9:45 PM , Blogger Hawkeye® said...

Elroy,
[Rapping sound on your forehead] "Hello? Hello? Anybody home? Think, McFly. Think!"...

The[sic] were wearing gags, therefore no speech was being impeded or denied...

D'OH! How can we have a battle of wits Elroy, when you are completely unarmed? Sheesh! What a dumb comment.

First, if they were wearing gags, then that would imply that they were impeding-denying their own speech. Second, the fact that they were wearing gags has absolutely no bearing on whether or not they were impeding-denying the speech rights of the Veterans Day observers. They were clearly obstructing the proceedings from continuing, and (whether gagged or not) they were therefore preventing the Veterans Day observers from expressing their free speech rights.

If they were ‘IN THE PROCESS’ then that that process was by definition not complete, and so therefore, again, free speech was not denied. Savvy?

Excuse me??? Are you suggesting that if a policeman responds to a call for help where demonstrators are unlawfully creating a disturbance (albeit self-gagged demonstrators), the police are supposed to wait until the demonstrators are finished committing the crime because the process of committing the crime is not yet complete? If that were the case, then police would not be allowed to stop burglaries, robberies or rapes which are still in progress. What a notion!

And to suggest that "free speech was not denied" because the gagged demonstrators had not yet finished the process of denying said free speech is simply ludicrous. As WCL would say, "Wake up bonehead!... You're a moron."

What of the idea that these veterans deserve to be heard?

I think it's a great idea. There are plenty of forums in which they can voice their opinions. I can guarantee you that there are dozens of left-wing news organizations, media outlets and blogs that would just love to hear from these "Veterans for Peace". They can say what they want to any time. But disturbing the peace while at the same time impeding others from their own free speech rights is not the best way to go about it. It's obstructionist. It's confrontational. It's criminal.

It's also stupid. It alienates the majority of those who see it. Yeah, it's an interesting visual, sure to be picked up by the news cameras. But those who see it are more likely to think less of such people than would think positively about them. They are cutting off their nose to spite their proverbial face.

Ot [sic] that arresting them contradicts everything they fought for?

That's total BS! There is a difference between free speech and disturbing the peace. Veterans did NOT serve their country and fight for any 'rights' to: a) create a public nuisance, b) disturb the peace, or c) prevent American citizens from honoring Veterans.

That's the REAL irony here isn't it? Here's the headline: Veterans Arrested Disturbing Events To Honor Veterans. What idiots!

 
At 11/16/2007 1:24 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wow. That's so ironic that you use a Bush quote to honor Veteran's Day. Hmmm.. didn't Bush run away from the Airforce? Oh yea, and isn't he responsible for the deaths of over 3,000 U.S. soldiers in Iraq? And for what? Freedom for Iraqis? HA! Like he gives a damn about the Iraqis! You wanna liberate people? Go to Korea, or India, or pretty much any country in Africa. Go free the 8 year olds in China working for 3 cents a day. But wait... there's no money to be made in those places... damn... guess we'll just go to Iraq and Iran.

 
At 11/16/2007 1:25 PM , Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hawkeye, you my friend, are a moron.

 
At 11/21/2007 11:00 PM , Anonymous Elroy said...

Hawkeye – instead of me defending the VFP, read this
http://veteransforpeaceactions.blogspot.com/
and they can do it for themselves.

And if you want to play Biff to my McFly, go right ahead – as I remember it, McFly was smart and canny while Biff was a musclebrained doofus who ended up washing McFly's car.

Cheers

Elroy

PS I'll give you an extra five bucks if you hoover the carpets and polish the dashboard.

 
At 11/24/2007 9:57 PM , Anonymous Stephen B. said...

Hawkeye, you said,

"That's OK... I don't think much of Aussies like you either. You're just a bunch of 'bush men' and descendants of British criminals. Don't get me wrong. There are some good Aussies, but you're not one of them."

You just showed your true colors. You are a typical religous, conservative, republican biggot.
"I don't think much of Aussies like you either. You're just a bunch of 'bush men' and descendants of British criminals." Unbelievable! How freaking racist is that?!

BTW, what are we Americans? A BUNCH OF BRITISH CRIMINALS, you tard. The colonists only completely broke like every British law and then started a REVOLUTION. Yea... I'd say that constitutes being a "British criminal." Were we in the wrong? Probably not. But in Britain's eyes, we were all a bunch of criminals. Think before you spew your venomous biggotry on the internet.

 
At 11/25/2007 10:39 AM , Blogger Hawkeye® said...

Stephen B,
Get a grip, man. You have absolutely NO sense of humor! You couldn't spot a joke if it jumped up and bit you on the behind. That's the problem (well, one of the problems) with you liberals. You take everything SO seriously. Just because that's the way you guys talk, doesn't mean that's the way I talk. Remember, my tag line: "Thoughts and satire about news & politics." You have to be somewhat discerning as I occasionally resort to humor.

I guess I should put a smiley face next to my satire so people like you can "get it". (:D)

 
At 11/25/2007 10:08 PM , Anonymous Elroy said...

Ah, satire! The latest conservative excuse for offensive behavior as pioneered by legendary stand-up comic and all-round wit Ann 'I wuz only joking' Coulter.

Conservatives will never understand satire – that's why they think they can do it, but I need only point to the mercifully defunct 'Half Hour News Hour' to prove my point.

Satire requires a certain tension to make it work, a juxtapositioning of ideas that illustrates the ridiculousness of a given attitude and/or idea. The Daily Show does it well – Stephen Colbert is a walking, talking example of satire in action.

Context is everything; hurling abuse is not satire, and

'Secondly, you are not an American, so I am not surprised that you have no respect for American traditions, or American veterans. That's OK... I don't think much of Aussies like you either. You're just a bunch of 'bush men' and descendants of British criminals. Don't get me wrong. There are some good Aussies, but you're not one of them'

has no satirical context – the only context there is for this statement is a volatile and personal attack on me. This really just isn't funny – it's just hurling abuse.

Coulter is not a satirist by any stretch, and neither is Rush – they are just using humour as an excuse to commit libel and slander. If you want to read a good right-wing satirist you might want to check out P.J. O'Rourke – I don't agree with him but at least he makes not agreeing agreeale.

I've got to say, however, that your satire is improving – saying that the left have no sense of humour is pretty funny. The lie to this hoary old meme is, fankly, everywhere – how many rightwing comics can you actually name? Dennis Miller? At a push, Denis Leary? I saw some Christian Right guy doing some once, but I forget his name, but maybe I haven't been paying attention. Got any more?

So there you go, you reactionary old myopic quasi-fascist God bothering chickenhawk. Oops! Did I say that? I was ony joking! It was satire!

Cheers

Elroy

 
At 11/26/2007 8:10 AM , Blogger Hawkeye® said...

Elroy,
I guess you're right (er, correct). Libs can do satire better than us "right-wing fascists". Hahahaha... I should have guessed that mostly everything you've been writing is satire. (:D)

 
At 11/26/2007 5:47 PM , Blogger Elroy said...

The other trick with satire is to know when it is happening. I wish more of your stuff was satirical but unfortunately it is mostly in earnest.

One of the great troubles with Right-wing satire is that it might seem like hysterical extremism to you, but us over here on the sensible left hear it and say 'Hmm. That's sounds about right. Very good. I agree. Isn't it a shame they they think they're being funnt.'

I'm sure Steven Colbert has the effect on you. I watch him and think 'The worry is that a lot of people probably agree with him.'

Comedy, then, is relative. Is relativism all right with you yet?

Cheers

Elroy

 

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